Why Storytelling Helps Your Business Grow with Rob Burns

Kathi: Hi everyone, this is Kathi and I'm back, and I am here with someone I've known for quite a little bit of time. His name is Robert Burns, and he is a storyteller from way back. I wanted to have him on the podcast because he knows a lot about telling stories, spinning yarns and creating engagement with your audience. And as entrepreneurs, we all want to do that. So welcome, Rob, to the show.

Rob: Hey, thanks for having me on. Yeah, we also know each other a little bit more. We've been married for what, 30-something years?

Kathi: Yeah, 30-something years. After doing a hundred podcasts, I figured I might as well have my honey on. I'm in a long training program for storytelling, and I thought that you were the perfect person to interview to talk about storytelling and spinning a yarn. So talk to me a little bit about your background, Rob, and why you're doing what you're doing now.

Rob: Yeah, it's been an evolution. I've been on the marketing side doing copywriting and marketing, marketing copywriting and things like that, for probably what, 25-plus years? Something like that. And really for me, I wanted to evolve and focus more on the creative side, as opposed to just the strict technical marketing aspect. So it's been a gradual movement going that direction. And storytelling was always… I've always been under the premise that everything is a story. If it's just one picture, that whole adage, a picture is worth a thousand words and all that good stuff. So if you look at it under that lens, then almost everything you do is a story, and then you can really start framing your work that way.

Rob: A great reason, from the marketing standpoint, that stories are so great is it really lets you know who that person is. People buy from you when they know, like and trust you. And from our earliest days, storytelling was really how we communicated things and let people know about different things. Like, hey, we were foraging over in that valley and then all of a sudden a lion showed up. And then there was a whole story about the lion encounter, things like that. So that's really why I gravitated towards storytelling.

Kathi: Yeah, it's like the hieroglyphics in the cave, right? It's like, okay, beast.

Rob: Right. Beast, ooh, captured, ooh. Yeah, who captured who, or some story of a great hunt, things like that. Because those were the things that were important in those days. So they were really the first marketing pieces, I guess, if you really want to look at it that way.

People buy from you when they know, like and trust you.

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Kathi: Absolutely. I remember back then it was word of mouth or pictorial. And then I remember when I was in advertising a long time ago that the advertorial that had the story about the owner was way more effective than just the ad, because people want to know who that person is that they're going to do business with. And they remember stories. Now we flash forward a couple decades, and now we're in video. And I know video is your game now. So talk to me about a story of one of your clients that you did a documentary for. What happened with the storytelling of that?

Rob: Yeah. So I do primarily documentaries now, and I still do some marketing work and brand stories or founder stories, things like that. But primarily it's documentaries. When I work with nonprofits, they have something called a gala video, and it's usually once or a couple times a year for their fundraising, and it's telling their story. It's really the perfect piece where people can know, like, trust and understand what that nonprofit's about. And if you do the film right, it makes a connection between the person watching the film, the nonprofit and whatever that cause is for the nonprofit. In this case, I think you're probably talking about the Humble Design one.

Kathi: Yeah, the Humble Design.

Rob: Awesome. So that one was great, and it was really interesting, because when it first came across, when we first started talking about it, I was semi not interested in it. What Humble Design was, they were a group of interior designers, and they had this big warehouse full of furniture. And when people that were unhoused got reintroduced to housing, they would go in and furnish these new places. And I learned so much about that whole world. Most of the time when I work with nonprofits, I'm learning as much as I'm creating a film.

Rob: So some of the things I learned: we did this for their San Diego chapter, and I think at the time there were about 9,800 people in San Diego that were homeless. And about two to five percent of the homeless people you see on the street, those are typically the stereotypical homeless people, where they have a tent on a sidewalk or they're sleeping on a sidewalk and that kind of thing. But that's only two to five percent of the homeless people. And those are usually people that were probably suffering from PTSD or addiction or have mental struggles, things like that. That's really where they're at. They're not even at a place where they could try to find housing. The majority of homeless people are people who were just one paycheck away, and something happened, and now they're living in their car or they're couch surfing, or they had abuse issues they were trying to get away from. That's the majority of those people. And the other thing I learned is in San Diego it's about 11 years before you can get housing.

Kathi: Wow.

Rob: And what really sold me on Humble Design was the fact that the attrition rate for somebody that finally does get reintroduced to housing is about 90 percent, because they would go and get a place and it was just a box, and there was nothing in it. And they're like, well, this isn't any different than when I was homeless, and there were no options. With Humble, they would make a house a home. And some really big things came out of it. One of the things was, now moms have a kitchen that's stocked where they can cook real food. So instead of buying food from a food desert, which is the least expensive but probably the worst health-wise for you, now they can actually cook real meals. And kids have beds to sleep in and desks to study on.

Rob: And part of the story: one of the people that were actually in the Humble story was incarcerated for 15 years, and then got out, and she had two kids and they were living on the street. They got put into housing, and she was one of the very first people that Humble had helped, quite a while ago. And now one of her kids is an architect, and the other kid, I think, is going to school for physics. None of that could have happened if they were just living in a car or just didn't have the resources. Those kids got a good night's sleep. And not only that, but they decorated it so it fit in with whoever the person was. There was another person who was from Hawaii, so they decorated the whole place in a Hawaiian theme. They actually have real furniture manufacturers and people that donate, so it's really nice. So it's really a home. And the attrition rate for people that go through Humble Design is only 5 percent. Only 5 percent of people wind up going back to being homeless.

Rob: So it really did make a huge difference, and that whole thing was a giant learning process for me, which I love. How the storytelling aspect went was really connecting the mission of what Humble does and why it was important, and then showing these people, how it changed their lives and how it actually really did good. And so for me that was just the best of everything kind of deal.

Kathi: Yeah, and what I found the most astounding as you worked through that whole project was not realizing that when the homeless get housed, they basically just have a bag of stuff. That's all they have. And they get into this apartment that's empty, unless they're a Humble client. Then they just have a box and, like you say, a bag of clothes, maybe some old ratty clothes. So Humble will come in and actually design it. Now I know after the video that you produced, called Home by the way, and we'll put the link down below if you guys want to watch it. It's an amazing movie about the homeless and about Humble. After they released that gala video, I know that they got a lot of revenue during a few galas in a row, just by someone telling their story, heartfelt. People were crying. I remember that. A lot of people were crying, not realizing what it's all about to be homeless. And they raised quite a bit of money just from that one video.

Rob: Yeah. I don't know if you want to give numbers, but the first time it was a good six-figure sum just from the premiere. And then they did two or three more events where they showed the video to use it as a tool, and they were in that range too. So it's really cool. Humble's a perfect example of why a story can be so effective. Because when I was first talking to them, I was honestly just pretty disinterested. I was thinking, how is this going to save the world or fix climate change or solve people's problems? It's just decorators. And I personally couldn't get past it until I really started doing a deep dive with them on what it was about and how it does effect change, and then I was just completely sold. And I think that is the power of the story. The story made that connection, and it connected with me, where I was just like, this is super important. It showed why it was important and how it helped, all of those things that we want to know. It made this heartfelt connection between the viewer and Humble Design and the people that were in the film.

That is the power of the story. The story made that connection, and it connected with me.

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Kathi: Yeah, and I think on the plus side, they got more clients, they got more sponsors, they got more volunteers. They're probably getting more grants because they're more face forward. What are they in, four different cities in the US?

Rob: Yeah. They're in what? Eight.

Kathi: Eight cities in the US is Humble Design. So they're expanding. So that is the power of storytelling. Now, as entrepreneurs, I think it's so very important that we tell our own story. I work a lot on my background, why I do what I do. People love to hear why we're doing what we're doing. And you're doing these founder stories. Can you talk about those just a little bit? Because I think everyone needs a founder story, and video obviously is the way to go.

Rob: Yeah, exactly. And really the trick is, it's not really about the subject of the story. It's about the person that's watching the story. Because if you do a story and it's just about me, me, me, and why I'm so great and how successful I am and how I can make you successful, that kind of thing, people are just bored. But if they can see a little piece of themselves in that person that is the subject of the story, then it's just infinitely more effective. And that's really the goal. With the founder stories, there's a lot of people that are, say, speakers or authors or experts, where their personality is connected to the brand, and sometimes it's just the story of a brand. And really the goal is you make that connection, and depending on what it's about, you try to make an emotional connection. So that person at bare minimum relates to the founder and the founder story, and best case scenario sees themselves as part of it, as part of that tribe, and can really make that connection.

It's not really about the subject of the story. It's about the person that's watching the story.

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Kathi: Yeah, I think it comes down to vulnerability, saying who you really are, and these are my faults, and people are like, yeah, I feel like that too. And that's very important.

Rob: Exactly. How many times have you seen an ad or a story and it's some guru selling something, and it's just about how awesome they are and how they're living their best life? A lot of times that will just create anxiety for me. They frame themselves at that pinnacle, unachievable to most people, and then they'll just throw in, and you can do it too, kind of thing. And everybody says, no. But if you talk about somebody that has become very successful and they start out the story living in their car…

Rob: And my rule is you just have to be 100 percent integrous as far as how I'm telling the story. I'm not going to make up a story for somebody, and I'm not going to try to find something that's not there, because it doesn't do anybody a favor. It doesn't do the person that's making the video any favors, and it just won't work. But everybody has a story, and everybody has that hero, Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, where they started out as just a regular person, and they had this mission or this goal, and then this thing happened to them and it put them on this journey. And maybe they had a little bit of success, and then all of a sudden failure just sideswiped them. And then they figured out whatever the dilemma was in the great battle, maybe some mental internal battle that they had, and then it was success. And people can relate to that, because there's very few people that just aren't struggling. If you can relate to those people and then show that there is a path, and it's a real path, and that they can understand it, then that's going to really make a huge difference. That's where the secret sauce is.

Kathi: Yeah, I love that, and you're a master storyteller. I think that's why on Instagram and all that, you have people walking around showing people their life. That's also a resonation. Unless you're douchey, right? But walking around saying I am doing this and doing that… having an actual founder story produced is a notch up, because it's elevated to the whole hero's journey, as opposed to just being little snippets of someone's life, so to speak.

Rob: Yeah, like a 5- to 15-minute video, but you shoot it like a movie, and it's a real story, so it has this cinematic emotional effect on people. And that really is what works, and it sets it aside. I think the social media stuff where people are less than perfect is actually more effective than people with the perfect bodies or driving a Lambo, because I think there's so much of that that it just creates anxiety in people. There's a lot of stuff coming out about that on social media, where people are like, all these people are just living their best life, and they're just sitting there, look at me, kind of thing. But being a real person and being relatable is much more powerful. And even in the films, a founder story or a brand story where it's a speaker, an author or a person that's part of their brand, where they show their vulnerabilities and they show their failures and they show how they overcame those, that's what people want to see. Because they want to know that it's a real person they're buying from, not just some person mimicking copy that they think will sell.

Kathi: And that's so funny, because that's the whole reason I do this podcast: to let people know that they're not alone, that we all do the ups and downs, we all do the zigzags. Life's never perfect, right? But we rise above, and how do we overcome challenges? That's the whole idea behind Organized and Energized! The Podcast, quite honestly. As you're speaking, Rob, I just keep thinking of Southwest. It just keeps blowing in my mind. As you know, I've always really loved Southwest. They've always taken good care of me. And I remember watching the movie about the founder of Southwest, and it was his hero's journey, who he is. He would talk to everybody. They showed all of his flaws and blemishes, and they had to really reel him in, because he would never be on time for meetings, because he was always chit-chatting with people on the way and they'd have to wrangle him in. And then the whole airline was built on love, because the guy was love personified. And that made me even more loyal to Southwest. They have the heart, and I didn't know about the founder. I didn't know why there was a heart in Southwest. Now I know the whole story, and now I'm probably the most loyal person ever for Southwest. I would always fly them if I had an option. It just drove it in even closer to my heart, knowing why he's there and who this guy is.

Rob: Right. Well, Southwest is a perfect example. If you remember, during COVID we started watching that whole series, The Kindness Diaries, with Leon Logothetis. And it was perfect timing, because it was during lockdown, and you watch the news for five seconds and you're like, oh man, the world is burning down and everybody hates each other, and it's just all this polarity. It was depressing. And this whole series was on Netflix. Leon was pretty wealthy. I think he made his money as an investment banker or something in England, and then he just gave it up. And he started doing this series, and each season he would show up in one part of the world. One part, I think, he drove all the way from Argentina to Los Angeles. And he had a VW bug, an old '60s VW bug, and it was named Kindness One. It's kind of a long story, but there's a good point to it.

Rob: So the rule was he couldn't accept any money. The only thing he could accept from people was food, fuel, lodging or assistance, but no money. And so he would just travel, and he would just run up to these people and say, hey, could I stay at your house, that kind of a deal. And the people that he did stay with would just have these amazing stories. There was this one guy, I can't remember in which part of Central America, who lived in a box. And he's like, hey, I don't have anything, but you can share this box, it's not safe to be out around here, you can just sleep here with me, and here's half of my food. And then at the end, Leon would actually help these people out. I think he bought the guy a house or something afterwards, and they knew nothing about him. So that was the story.

Rob: So, long story short, to connect Southwest: Leon actually did a Kindness Diaries initiative with Southwest. Southwest had this whole web series where Southwest was the sponsor, but he would do his Kindness Diaries thing. And I think that's a perfect example, because sometimes people try to do virtue signaling or this or that, but it was this perfect connection of this guy that actually did these things and Southwest, who thought that was kind of cool. So that's a great win-win connection, where they're connecting stories and empathy and a huge brand.

Kathi: I didn't even realize that. That's interesting. That went way past me. But yeah, I think that's the thing, empathy, right? People can't empathize unless they can relate, and people can't relate unless you show who you really are. And being vulnerable is where it's really at. In any kind of sales, anybody that you speak with that's a potential client or a potential partner, if you're just who you are and you're real, they're either going to resonate or they aren't. And more than likely, they will resonate, because they will be able to empathize and say, oh yeah, I feel that way too sometimes.

Rob: Yeah, I think that's spot on, and really for two reasons. One is, as I mentioned, don't try to act fake compassionate or try to create this story or virtue signal, because people will spot that in just one second. And then it's worse than if you were just a hey, buy my stuff kind of person. So the message has to be real and the story has to be real. And I promise you, everybody has a message and a story that'll connect.

The message has to be real and the story has to be real.

Rob: And the other thing is, if you do manage to pull it off and you create this whole scenario because you're trying to fit in with a certain group of people that's really not you, that's just a huge recipe for failure too. Because I think the people that don't drink your Kool-Aid are just as valuable as the people that do. Those are the people where you'll get started in something and then it just doesn't work out, it just doesn't resonate, and you put so much time and energy in. And people think I'm crazy all the time, because I'll just be kind of like, mhm. And you're like, well, this is just this huge opportunity. We had that talk earlier, where somebody was trying to connect me with this other huge group, and I was just like, I just know, man, if I get involved with that, I know me, and it's not going to work. My value system didn't fit in with that value system, and I'm not judging that value system. I'm just saying for me, it didn't resonate, and it's going to show. I'm the worst person in the world to have a fakey face, because you're going to tell exactly what's on my mind.

Rob: So I think, be you. And you have to think, when the internet came out, there were a couple billion fewer people on Earth. There are so many people now that are on the internet that no matter who you are, there's going to be more than enough people that are going to fit into that tribe. So don't try to be something you're not. Just be you, and you're going to be infinitely more successful, you're going to tell better stories, and you're also going to filter out those people that are not resonant with your message.

Don't try to be something you're not. Just be you, and you're going to be infinitely more successful.

Kathi: Yeah, and it goes back to a few podcasts back, when we were talking about avatars. I spent so many thousands of dollars trying to figure out who my avatar is, and really who my avatar is, is me. People that resonate with me are going to be the people that are my clients. And if you're out there listening, your avatar is you. Someone who is interested in what you're interested in, someone who thinks like you think, because you're going to resonate, you're going to empathize with each other, you're going to be able to grow together. And if you try to fit into this other crowd, the clique so to speak, it probably isn't going to work in the long haul. It might work quickly for a little bit, but it will fade away. So I think that's great. So this is my question of the year for this podcast: when you have a success, Rob, how do you celebrate success?

Rob: Usually with my beautiful wife.

Kathi: That was a setup.

Rob: No. Well, that's actually pretty true. For us it'll be maybe we'll go on an adventure, or go sit under some trees or cactuses, things like that, and really just spend time being grateful for whatever that success was for.

Kathi: Yeah, I think so. Spending time, for sure. Okay, so we have to talk about organizing a little bit. You're super organized. What's your favorite organizing hack or system that you use?

Rob: I'm a big fan of round filing.

Kathi: The circular can system?

Rob: Yes, the circular can system. I try with as much diligence as I can to not let things stick to me as far as stuff. I'm kind of an anti-stuffist. As you know, before we were married, I think I had a futon mattress and a set of chef's knives and my clothes, and I was happy as a clam. So for me, I don't need to accumulate a lot of things. Just maybe an awesome wife.

Kathi: That's helpful for me. I am the collector, of course. He married me and he got the stuff. That's the story. Lots of bargains.

Rob: Yeah. Bargains everywhere.

Kathi: That's funny. But I know that you like WorkFlowy and I like Trello. So it's tools. Talk to me about WorkFlowy. For those of you out there, I love Trello because it's visual, it's like little Post-it notes, and that keeps me organized. But WorkFlowy, some people out there might really resonate with this. So let's talk about WorkFlowy just for a sec.

Rob: Yeah, WorkFlowy is really interesting, because most people don't like it, because when you first look at it, it's so simple. But that's really the beauty of it. In WorkFlowy you can create these tasks and these lists and subtasks and sublists, and they all drop down. I've literally mapped out super massive, complicated projects or systems. I do a lot of SOPs using WorkFlowy. An entire film I use WorkFlowy for. And what's great is you can look at just certain sections, and you can expand and collapse, and you can do things like tag. So in the film, there's all these people that are doing all these different things, and you can hashtag a name or at-symbol a name and put it next to that task. And then you can just click on that name, and it shows all the things inside of WorkFlowy that are related to that person or that task. So it looks really simple, but probably the most complicated, integral things that I've done, I've used WorkFlowy for. And it's like five bucks a month or something. It's ridiculous.

Kathi: Yeah, you use it really brilliantly, and you can put a lot of stuff in there. So check out WorkFlowy if you're looking for task management, or actually for assignment management, who's doing what and when. And if you get overwhelmed by looking at gigantic lists, you can break it down and only look at one thing.

Rob: Yeah, project management.

Kathi: So if you could turn back time, Rob, and tell your 18-year-old self something, what advice would you give him?

Rob: I would say don't be afraid to fail, because that's the fastest path forward.

Kathi: Good stuff. Okay, so I know you probably have a valuable free resource that you could offer people. Is there anything that you would want to offer? Do you have a link? I know we're going to drop the Home video in there, so that you can watch a little mini gala documentary. You'll become very educated about the homeless, not just here in San Diego but all over the world, and who they are and why they're there. A lot of very surprising things that you don't really understand about them. But if you have anything else that you want to provide, we'll go ahead and drop the link below. I see you thinking.

Rob: Yeah. I'm so busy doing projects these days, I don't have any kind of email capture or anything like that. But anybody that might be interested in films, or if they want to see how I structure things, because most of the things I do are pretty short. So you can see a five-minute story. We did the Grandma Sparky one, and that was five or eight minutes. You could go to treehousestudios.studio, and if you look at the artwork section, you can check it out. And if you're interested in maybe having a brand story or something like that, just go there and reach out.

Kathi: Perfect. Treehouse Studios dot studio, and it's plural. Got it. Well, guess what? We're at the end, and I can't believe it's taken me this long to interview you. I feel a little bit weird, because you are my husband and my honey, but I know that there's a lot that can be learned from storytelling, and I hope you folks have enjoyed this episode. Think about a story for yourself. What is the story that you tell? Are you vulnerable? Are people able to empathize with you, or are you just being the bright, shiny, perfect person? That's not what you want to be, right? So thanks for coming on the show, Rob.

Rob: Thanks for having me on the show.

Kathi: And until next week, we'll see you then. Take care.