How to Drive Leads Through Social & Email Without Being a Spammy Salesperson with Patrick Henseler

Kathi: Hey everyone, this is Kathi and I am back with Pat Henseler. We are going to talk about marketing and leads and follow-up and all the stuff that we're supposed to be doing as entrepreneurs. So I'm excited to have Pat on the show, and I wanted to welcome him and say, "Hello Pat, how you doing?"

Pat: I'm doing great today, Kathi. Really excited to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Really looking forward to diving into all this.

Kathi: Yeah, it's going to be fun. So everybody always wants to know how did you get to where you are? So let's hear a little bit about the backstory. How did you grow up? What were your parents doing? And how did you turn into this incredible entrepreneur?

Pat: Yeah, so let's see. Going all the way back. So I am one of five kids, and my dad worked, at the time, at a really small company. The first thing I remember there was they would make die-cast models of NASCAR cars. That company ended up growing a lot when he started there, and he became the president of that company. They went on to make all sorts of different toys. Pretty much, we used to tell people growing up that our dad worked at a toy company, so we used to tell them his name was Santa Claus. And that was fun for a little while.

Kathi: Awesome.

Pat: People realized he didn't have a big white bushy beard or anything like that. So after that, my mom was an accountant, and then she stayed home with the kids for a while too while I was growing up. From there, I went off to school. I actually majored in and was working in magazine journalism for a little while outside of school. In that role, I actually got my first taste of marketing by doing a lot of social media marketing for different companies, publications, even some video sites that I was interning at. After graduating, I ended up finding a job at a marketing company here in St. Louis. And then not too long after that, I ended up working with my co-founder at Connect365, Josh Turner. At the time, I was working for a marketing agency that he was running, and that led to a really strong relationship between he and I. That ended up with us venturing off on our own thing, which turned into our business, Connect365.

Kathi: Oh, that's fantastic. So really you had a model of entrepreneurship all along, with your mom as an accountant and your dad doing his thing. I kept thinking of the little Matchbox cars. Was it similar to that?

Pat: Yeah, similar. I would say you're probably thinking of Hot Wheels. That was, at the time, one of their big competitors. But yeah, similar idea. They ended up branching out. Their company actually doesn't sell any cars anymore. It's all other things for kids of all ages. But yeah, exactly right. So I got my start just seeing what he was doing, and it always seemed interesting to me to be able to, in some ways, help have a little more control over calling the shots and helping decide which way things are going. Because I will say he was not a NASCAR person, which sounds funny because he was making these little NASCAR car models. I wouldn't say that was his passion. I don't know if he ever watched a NASCAR race before he started that job. But he knew how to position things in the market. He ended up gearing that company more towards toys, which turned out to be really good for them.

Kathi: Well, that's interesting. So he had the marketing bones as well. So you learned that vicariously as you got into journalism. And yeah, I think journalism has so much to do with marketing, and for you to branch out is fantastic. So talk to me about when you and Josh met. How was the collaboration? Was he already doing it, or did you guys co-form this together, the Connect365.io?

Pat: Yeah, so I always give Josh some trouble on this. The first time I actually interviewed with Josh for a role at the marketing agency he was running, he ended up hiring someone else for that role, and then a couple months later he reached back out to me and ended up hiring me. So at that agency, at the time, I was doing a lot of manual marketing work for our clients, running different campaigns through social media, primarily LinkedIn and Facebook at that time, as well as email. I was doing a lot of manual work to send out emails that were very personal, very one-to-one, not some big mass marketing email. I was doing a lot of work to send it out myself, or using a process at the time that used to be called mail merge, and it was very inefficient. It took a lot of time, which, as you can imagine, at that agency was a lot of resources and new people we had to hire. And I just knew there was a better way. So it ended up turning into, "Hey, I got this idea that I think we could build a software to accomplish what we're doing manually for our clients, but allow our people to take on many more clients." And that was the initial idea and wrinkle. Since then, we launched that for our agency and then figured out we had a lot of small business owners, people out there that maybe couldn't pay us $4,000, $5,000, $10,000 a month to do all their marketing for them, but might be interested in using a software like ours to do a lot of that work themselves. And that's really how the company ended up coming about. We ended up getting a lot of traction with our software, so we ended up splitting it out into its own company. And the rest is, I wouldn't say history, because we're still writing it, but the rest is history, for a turn of phrase.

Kathi: Yeah, it's a really big need to just keep on track and keep in touch and keep in correspondence. And I know a lot of the audience out here could be solopreneurs, or you could just be five or six people in your company. To have a whole marketing wing is a little bit cray-cray. So how does it work? Does Connect365 link in? What platforms does it link in with? And how does that evolve as people out there are listening? They might have ActiveCampaign, they might have Kajabi, whatever they have.

Pat: Yeah, so with Connect365, the big differentiator between us and ActiveCampaign, for instance, is that we will hook into your main email. So if you're using Google or you're using Outlook, we'll hook into there and send out a message from your main email account. Now, the difference is, with Infusionsoft or Keap or HubSpot, they are sending out from their different IP addresses. Ours will send out from you, so it's going to look like a message that came from you, because it's actually as if you went in there and typed it out manually. But it gets delivered at a much higher rate and leads to much higher open rates as a result. So that's our big differentiator there. In terms of your question of who we hook into, our direct integrations for the email sending are through Google, so Google Workspace or even a free Gmail account, as well as Outlook.

Kathi: Okay. So you actually use the Google IP address to send from. And what I've found, oftentimes, with my Gmails is it goes into promotions instead of going into primary. So is there any sense around how you can fix that, or do you guys have a workaround for that?

Pat: Well, usually where we see a lot of people ending up in that promotions tab tends to be based on the more marketing messages that they're sending out. With ours, our average open rate through campaigns is 39% on our full platform, while typical industry averages for open rates can vary industry by industry, but they're like 12 to 18% through most email tools. So getting something to the primary inbox is a big focus of what we do and how our emails are sent out. But the second piece of that that I always reference to people is that the tool or software is part of it. The other big part is what's going into that message and into that copy, because email inboxes are smart these days. They're pretty good at determining, "This is a sales message because it uses these handful of words or this subject line." So we work with a lot of our clients on how to choose the right copy to go in their message. We build in a lot of templates for sales outreach messaging that's more relationship-focused, because that's where you end up getting a lot more sales opportunities, a lot more booked appointments, and you end up getting to the primary place in the inbox, which is where most people, I think, want to be.

Kathi: Yeah, absolutely. So do you think it's mainly the subject line, or is it also the body of the copy?

Pat: Well, it's both. I wouldn't say it's one or the other. Those are two of the big ones. It's also going to be based on how your recipients are interacting with your emails. So another aspect of our program that we really focus on with people is building up more awareness in your audience. Because the subject line is important, like you mentioned, and the copy in the message is important, but the biggest reason that people choose whether or not to open an email is if they actually recognize the name of the person that sent it. Which is like, "Duh, Pat, that makes sense." But you go look for blogs on email marketing, and so many of them put a lot of emphasis and focus on subject line and body copy, which is important. But again, we should not ignore the elephant in the room: the more people know you, the more likely they are to engage with your messaging, which is going to help all your email. So we actually have a part of our program that is focused on helping our clients put out more content on their LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter. We actually have a team of people that will write a daily post for them and then auto-post that to their chosen platform. Which again is a way for a lot of our customers to build more awareness with their market and increase the likelihood that they have more name recognition. So when their emails are going out, they're more likely to be seen and responded to.

The biggest reason that people choose whether or not to open an email is if they actually recognize the name of the person that sent it.

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Kathi: Oh, that's awesome. So you have the copywriters and the content creators already there. A lot of people need that, I know, especially as they're just starting out. It seems overwhelming. What do you recommend? Do you recommend two platforms, three platforms? You were talking about the big three. If someone was just starting out, or looking to redefine what they're doing socially, what would you recommend they focus on? Is it wide or deep? That's always the question, right?

Pat: Yeah. So if someone's just starting out and they're in a place like you're describing, overwhelmed, there's so many options, there's so many things to learn on one versus the other, I would start with two things in mind. One, which are you most comfortable with? Because that'll have the lowest learning curve, meaning that you're more likely to get it done and you're less likely to be in a place of, "Oh, there's so much to learn." That leads to inaction, and that's its own problem.

Kathi: Yeah.

Pat: The second big consideration I would have is, where is your audience? I talk with clients about this sometimes, where they're like, "Hey, I have 2,000 connections on LinkedIn and I have no followers on Facebook, no followers on Twitter." If that's the math there, I think it's easy for me to focus on LinkedIn and work on a post for there, work on material to share there, and either just repurpose that on those other platforms or just stick to that. LinkedIn, for a lot of our clients, who tend to be small business owners, a lot of times B2B or selling to specific professionals, makes a lot of sense, because you can find those people there. You have a way of staying in front of them if you're posting regularly. And you actually even have a way to contact them further over email if you're connected with them. So that one tends to be the one that a bigger part of our audience tends to focus on. But I have plenty of other clients that have an audience on Facebook already, or an audience on Twitter. And I say, "Great. You have an audience there. That means you're likely pretty familiar with it, at least to have gotten it started. And your audience is there, so stay in front of them there. Go where their eyeballs are, where you have access to them."

Go where their eyeballs are, where you have access to them.

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Kathi: Yeah, that's really good advice. And I think B2B, definitely LinkedIn, and B2C, others. But I agree, it's whoever resonates. It's so funny, because when I first started, 18 years ago, Pinterest has a huge following in mine. But no one really ever talks about Pinterest. It's pretty interesting to me. It's not one of the ones that people talk about. But we love it.

Pat: Yeah, and there's a lot of power in having something that's a little more niche in some cases. It might not be the one that gets all the headlines, but if that's where your audience is and you built up a following there, then you don't need to listen to those gurus that are out there talking about the latest thing. I don't know if you use it, but I remember back at the start of the pandemic, Clubhouse was all the rage.

Kathi: Oh, yeah.

Pat: And these days I don't know many people who talk about that much anymore. Now, you might have an audience that's there. And if so, then great. You can buck the trends and focus on the item that makes sense for you and where your audience hangs out.

Kathi: Yeah, it's funny. I think Clubhouse was so big because so many people wanted to connect. They just wanted to connect with a group of people.

Pat: Exactly. It launched at a good time for that, certainly.

Kathi: Yeah, it was the "it" thing. It's like, "Okay, we're going to be on Clubhouse."

Pat: Yeah, for sure.

Kathi: So I know that in order to develop this type of thing, you have to be super organized. So let's talk, Pat, about your favorite organizing strategy. What's your fallback go-to that just keeps your day in order, your week in order, Pat going down the road to where he wants to go?

Pat: My fallback organizing tip is a good question, because in the companies we run, I've used a lot of different tools that are supposed to make you more organized. I tell you what, the one that I go back to that's so critical for me is really blocking out my tasks for the day on my Google Calendar, and as best as I can, sticking to the times that I'm saying to stay with them. It's simple, but I think that's actually why it's powerful for me: it's simple. I can look at it. It can give me the alert there. If I showed you my calendar right now, I try and account each day for any gap of time that's 20 or more minutes for something. And then the other hack, or just routine, that I follow each day is two items that are built into that. At the end of each day, I'm going to review the tasks that I had on my list or the blocks of time I had set aside, just to review it. In some ways it's a little bit of a mindset tip. I'm talking to other entrepreneurs out there: you wear a lot of hats. You've got to do a lot of things. You've got fires to put out. You've got planning you're doing. You've got all sorts of things. I think it's important at the end of the day, before you go on to your other roles in life, your home life or whatever it might be, to get a little bit of a recap of what you did, what you accomplished, and it helps you set priorities for the next day. So that's the second piece there: I'm either at that moment going to set my priorities for the next day, or I might sometimes do that first thing in the morning if I wake up and want to jot down what I need to get done and get that into my calendar. My calendar is just so critical. Without it, I don't know where I'd be.

Kathi: Yeah, I love the Google Calendar, and that's really quite disciplined, to block out everything that's over 20 minutes. That's really disciplined. And I agree with you. The reason that it's working for you is because you do take that time at the end. If you don't take the time at the end of the day, you don't even know what you're supposed to schedule, necessarily. What didn't get finished? What fell through the cracks?

Pat: Yeah, exactly. Whether it's training someone new to our team on how to work the process, or just working with a lot of entrepreneurs, I know what it's like in a space like that, where you have to be the marketer, you have to be the salesperson, you have to be the fulfillment person, you have to be the finance person. You've got a lot of hats you're wearing. And a mistake I see happen too much is, when you're doing that, you're caught up in the grind. And you get to the end of a day or a week and you're like, "Well, I know I was really busy all week, but was I moving towards my big rocks, my big priorities, the things I need to get done to move the business or move this project or that project forward?" I am committed to my calendar and doing that. But I am not going to lie to someone new to it, or someone that's listening to this as an entrepreneur: just because it's in there, it doesn't mean that every single day I'm 100% where I'm like, "Oh, I timed this out perfectly before I started the day," or, "This fire came up. Well, I don't have time to deal with that today because of these other things." Things like that can come. So I give myself a little bit of a break there, where if I need to move something, I make sure it gets moved so that it's still in front of me each day. And I've just always found it helps me get more of the big items that I need to get done done, rather than just feeling like I'm running from fire to fire, fixing things.

Kathi: Yeah, and that's a really good point, Pat, because if you don't know what you didn't do, you don't know what to move, right? So if you're just going through it and you don't have that list of things, then you don't know what to schedule. But also, I think the recap at the end of the day is a way to go, "Good job. I can't believe I did that, that, that and that." Because a big part of my focus these days is celebrating. Taking the time to say, "Good job, Kathi. You did it." Celebrate yourself. And if you don't do the recap, you don't even know what to celebrate, because you're just going full speed ahead. I love it.

Pat: Yeah, every company meeting I run, the starting point is people on our team are supposed to share wins. We do that even with customer calls, group calls. We'll start that way, and we'll say, "It could be a win in this program, it could be a win in your business." Because you're right. Too often people are on to the next thing, which is important. You need to be able to move forward. But it's important, too, to recognize what was a success, what was a win. Even the losses: what did you learn from that that you can turn into a win? Otherwise, it can be a heavy weight. And I need that personally at the end of the day, because I find otherwise it's tough for me to go into my role as husband or dad, because there's something in my head about, "Oh, what was this thing that I was supposed to do?" I need that to end the day, to say, "This is what's getting moved to tomorrow. This is what I completed, great." And it helps me put different things into different buckets for myself, personally.

Kathi: Yeah, it's closure, and I agree, it's separation, so you can move into the next part of your day. Okay, now I'm dad, now I'm working out, now I'm going to be husband. It's so important to have that distinct separation, especially for those who are working at home. Are you working at home? Are you virtual?

Pat: I am virtual. And we've been virtual for, I'm really trying to think how long now, five or six years. The last couple years I've had a lot of friends who were learning how to do it, and I was like, "I can tell you all the things." And one of the items I tell them is, when I first went virtual, it's a big change to your daily routine and schedule, and it was easy for me to really blur the dividing line between work and home. I'd get to the end of a day and it would be much later, and I'd think back, "Did I even eat lunch today?" And I was like, "I need to change this." The biggest thing for me has just been being very meticulous about planning out my days, and making sure that that's helping me get towards the goals that we have as a company and that I have professionally.

Kathi: Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. I'm a big Google Calendar promoter myself. I really believe in it. Do you color code your tasks based on different types?

Pat: If I'm feeling really, really good, I might. I would say some of that will depend on if I've got an extra minute or two. I'm not as religious about that. We use different task management tools internally, like we use Asana, just because I think tools like that, for me, have been most impactful when I'm trying to communicate ideas or projects with other people. I just don't want to give everyone access to my Google Calendar and have them seeing a Beautiful Mind type situation. So I use both, but for my internal stuff, the item that runs my day is that Google Calendar.

My calendar is just so critical. Without it, I don't know where I'd be.

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Kathi: And I'm with you. I'm with you on that. Love the Google Calendar. Okay, so let's talk about a time where you felt like you were in the weeds and something really just knocked you off your balance. What happened, and how do you get back from that?

Pat: Oh, well, let's see, a time when I was in the weeds.

Kathi: Which one you can remember, right?

Pat: Yeah, it's a place I think most entrepreneurs end up being, and you get somewhat good at, "Here are the things I go to to get myself out of this." If I did think of one specific instance, the one I'd probably go back to is the start of our software company. It's different. We aren't a venture-backed software company. Really, really bootstrapped. And even so, at the time, as we were starting this project, I had a role in this agency, in this different company. So I was able to take a lot of what I did in my day-to-day and say, "How do we design and build a product that makes this easier for someone doing it?" But it still was wearing two very distinct hats. I had clients that I was pulled into. I had people on the team that I managed, and I couldn't let them down, otherwise it would be a big impact and effect. So that's probably, to me, the most obvious and clear example that I go back to of being very in the weeds, because I was trying to balance these two items. The way I got out of it, hmm. Maybe two things jump to mind. One was joining a few different groups with other founders, co-founders, entrepreneurs.

Kathi: Yeah.

Pat: Because it's easy to start comparing your situation to other people you're close to, and other people I was close to weren't able to understand it. They're like, "Well, you have the job. What do you mean you've got this other thing going on?" And it was able to open my eyes and mind to, "Okay, this isn't fully unique, what I'm feeling or going through. And there's other people that have done it," and that can help get you out of a rut, or out of feeling like, "How do I get out of this?" So that was really helpful for me. I already talked a little about the calendar item, so I'll leave that one out of this answer. But the second thing I might say here is just being a really good documenter. I am a big spreadsheet user. Again, maybe a little old school for some people that maybe have some neat new widget or tool to do it. But I used Google Sheets very extensively to document things on my day-to-day, my day job, so to speak: what was going on, what was a pain point, a problem, something I wish could be solved. And then being able to take that exercise and turn it into something that I was able to apply for the software product was really helpful for me to get out of it and feel like I was doing my job at both without letting the other one down.

Kathi: I was going to say you're sneaky like that, Pat. But it makes total sense. I mean, everything we create as entrepreneurs, we're creating based on our experience and where we see that there is a void and a lack. I mean, that's brilliant.

Pat: Yeah. When I talk with different entrepreneur clients of ours, and we do a lot of help with clients on their sales process, too, there's the old adage that you don't want to just create a product, you want to solve a problem. And a lot of times it's, "What's a big enough problem in my own life, in my own work, that I'd actually be willing to pay to solve?" And that's an exercise that I hope everyone out there has done from some standpoint. Unless it's a case where maybe you're selling to a very different type of person. But in most cases I think it's a good exercise: what problems are there here, and how does this product address it? Rather than, "I just created this great product or service. I don't know if it's actually solving anything, but it sounds flashy." What's the actual in-the-weeds problem that's getting solved here? Because that is the most powerful thing, I think, in sales and product design and development that there is.

Kathi: Well, and I agree. I think that's a really good point too, Pat. With the problems that we have, I generally think that we are our own avatar, quite honestly. So the problems that I'm experiencing are something that my clients are going to experience. The same thing with you. You're in the trenches, you're developing the thing. You're saying, "Oh, this is a problem I have, so other people are going to have it as well." I think that's case in point really well. Everybody, listen to that. And what I also think is important that you said is that you found groups of peers. I know that I'm surrounded by people that don't necessarily understand what I even do for a living. My closest friends kind of get it, but they don't really get what it means to do all this. And being surrounded by other entrepreneurs and other founders and inventors, as you did, is so very important, because then we can relate. They say, "Oh, yeah, I did that. I remember when I was there, and this is how I dug out of it." In fact, that's what this podcast is all dedicated to helping.

Pat: Yeah. There's a lot of power in knowing that. Most people think, "I know I'm not the only one out there," but it's when you actually internalize it, when you can have an actual interaction or experience with someone, or even just hear from them in some way, where that's similar to something I have here. Maybe not apples to apples, where we're in the exact world, but it's enough where I'm like, "Okay, there is a way through this." That then empowers you to go find the solution or go figure out the solution and say, "It's been done before, and I have an example or a handful of examples here that I can point to." And now I get re-energized to make things better or solve some problem or issue I'm dealing with.

Kathi: I love it. So did you join mastermind groups? Is that what type of groups it was for you? Masterminds or…

Pat: A couple of them, in a couple different product manager and product development groups, a couple Slack channels for that. I've been in some mastermind groups, been in some other programs out there for different items, some more entrepreneurial focused, some more on some specific aspect of marketing, for instance. So I've been in a handful of these over the last handful of years. I've also been lucky enough in some of our other companies to run some like that. So I've also seen it from the other side, which sounds odd and funny, but in some ways, when you're able to help facilitate some connections between members, where I might not have just provided a service necessarily, but I helped introduce two people that then were able to work together, or helped share some examples and experiences that then helped another person, that feels good from that side, too. So I've been on every side of the mastermind and program type angle that's out there.

Kathi: I love it. And I think being a resource, being as big of a resource as you can possibly be, is always a good thing. It's a win-win for everybody. So what have I not asked you? What should we be talking about here that you want to let the audience know about what you're doing, or any of your product? What should I have asked you that I did not?

Pat: Yeah, well, I'll answer that, certainly, but one thing that maybe ties in a bit that I wanted to touch on: you brought up the idea of being a resource to others.

Kathi: Yes.

Pat: I think this is one of the biggest mistakes I see people make when they're trying to do any sort of outreach for sales development, booking sales calls and appointments. If you have that mindset that you just mentioned of, "How can I be a resource to this person I'm reaching out to?" even if you're reaching out to 50 or 100 of them at once, you end up getting way better and way more opportunities than if you just are sending out an email or a social media message that's like, "I do these services. Do you need this service?" So we talk a lot in our programs about the power of relationship building and resourcing, and it's ultimately what ends up helping you get better results, because even if you're getting a higher open rate with us, if you have the wrong message, it's not going to get you very far. So I just wanted to comment that I think that's so key. And in terms of your question about another thing that maybe you should have asked me, that's my big thing. A lot of people that try to do sales outreach, whether this is someone that's doing cold calling, someone that's sending an email, or someone on their social media, they connect with you on LinkedIn and five minutes later you have a message in your inbox about their service: "Hey, we work with a lot of businesses just like yours, and I'd love to set up some time to talk to you about how we can help you." We've all gotten those. If you can shift the pattern that most people are used to a little bit and be more focused on relationship, "How can I be a resource? How can I help?" without it being so apparent, "Let's talk about my services," you're going to end up winning time and time again. So that's the big thing I tell people about, aside from what I mentioned earlier, which is build up more awareness in your audience. That's also going to help you with your email open rates, especially if you're reaching out to a colder audience of people. And if people want more information, they can just go to our site, Connect365, that's just the numbers 365, .io. There should be a spot there where you can request a free invite to use our products. That includes us writing some social media posts for you for free, as well as utilizing our email automation software. So hopefully, if anything here makes sense for people that are listening, feel free to reach out there. You can find my email on that site. I'm happy to help talk ideas or give you some other Google Calendar suggestions as needed. Those are on the house, too.

Even if you're getting a higher open rate with us, if you have the wrong message, it's not going to get you very far.

Kathi: I love that. I love that. Well, that's a huge offer from you. So that's our valuable free resource, right? We can actually check it out and use it and have your people write a few pieces for us.

Pat: Yeah. So you can jump in, like I said, at that site. Now, the thing that I've saved for this audience, people that are organized entrepreneurs, is my last piece of advice for someone that's thinking about, "Hey, I'm going to start some email outreach. I'm going to start some stuff on social media." On the email side, you want to put in a little bit of planning and thought about where this audience is coming from. What do I need to send them to get them to move forward? So I just mentioned this as a note: if you request a free invite on our site, you'll get access to the social media posts, you get access to our tool, and you'll also get a daily training from us to help you with that. So you're not feeling like you have to reinvent the wheel or come up with all the ideas. We base our strategy and teaching strictly on what we used to see work in our agency and what we see work for our clients now. So you get a lot of material there to help you put things into the right place to make your outreach or your social media more effective as a result.

Kathi: That's fantastic. Thank you so much, Pat. I really appreciate it. This has been a fun conversation: two Google Calendar people who are addicts, I know.

Pat: Yeah. It's been great, Kathi. Sometime we'll have to start a new group for Google Calendar enthusiasts.

Kathi: We should. We should, for sure. The Google Calendar support group. What colors do you use?

Pat: There we go. Yeah, we'll have a t-shirt with everything blocked off on a calendar.

Kathi: Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for your time. Everybody, make sure to check out the free offer. If you're looking at social media, even if you already have some going on, check it out. Let them do some work for you. See how it flows and fits with you, and I guarantee you that it's going to help you if you're inconsistent with what you're doing. It's going to help you get that consistency back. And again, like we say, do the giveback. Do the relationshiping. That's really the most important thing for marketing, I think, especially this day and age. It's all about that.

Pat: Yeah, especially if you're reaching out to new people. These are brand new people to your world. It's so critical. It's going to help you get your foot in the door with way more opportunities. And Kathi, I really appreciate you having me. It was a lot of fun, like you said, and I hope to talk to you again soon.

Kathi: Absolutely. Signing off for now, gang. We'll see you next week.